Brothers of Arms

[Tjan]

The DT forums has been a bit quiet lately so I thought I would initiate some discussion. There are more and more DT's out there so come on - comment !
This is the spec I have been running with the last 4 months
dps and aggro good but with improved gear both prot and miti I thought I would try and increase dps for more aggro and try and keep Phork's alive longer.

I have 5 points in chromatic warding so I have less in prot in CoI and Stone skin. My miti armour was pretty good so one point in CoP still give me +80 and 5% armour boost.
http://aoc.yg.com/feat-planner?class=31 ... 21,4015-21

I have just changed to this

http://aoc.yg.com/feat-planner?class=31 ... 21,4015-21

Reason for changing is that my armour miti is now pretty good and I want to try and improve dps a bit as dps=aggro =healing for a DT
I believe that more than 1 point in crystalised ether is a waste and devourers might gives %+ to dps on LL and BfA where-as CoA gives to all hits so I have moved more points to Coa. Also had to reduce blighted soul from 5 points to 2 but this still gives some aoe dps and difference should be small while still keeping crit chance there.

Any comments? I will let u know how this feels over the next weeks

[revolucion]

Well first off mate, you don't have any problems getting aggro. Its losing it that's your problem.

And regarding "saving" dps'ers, having been in that postition myself, I wouldnt beat yourself up over it. There has been an annoying tendency for careless dpsing in the last few months, and thats not a problem you can ever really hope to solve. If someone is going to continue to play irresponsibly and selfishly then its better to have it out in the open for all to see, rather than going out of your way as a tank to mitigate their failures.

But your premise of increasing dps is one I agree with, if for no other reason that it will mean you can tap a little more health back. The other thing thats important is obviously increasing the number of procs that can potentially crit and increase/maintain your VoM stacks. So with that in mind I use this build -

http://tinyurl.com/8xno5aq

Obviously there are great similarities with your own build, the main differences are picking up Approach of Death (Extra proc), Sustained Rage and Volcanic Rage. I have grown fond of Volcanic Rage, it's a useful utility to have. For instance I will often use it in conjunction with Blood Pact to improve the amount of health I can tap back. It's also nice to use against the Acheronian Soul (Although it's probably a little bit of overkill, as DT's usually should have no problem there).

With this build my dps sits around 300 in a raid and spikes up with various buffs going off, so in general its rarely necessary to use taunts as long as I am able to keep hitting the target.

In terms of changes I might make in the future, it would definately be to remove Stone Skin completely and employ those points to increase other abilities. It seems that having 50% or more protection isn't truly necessary for any of the fights in TAS, 40% seems more than adequate. But even removing Stone Skin completely I can still attain 48% protection if neccessary, the points saved could immediately go into Hateful Strikes and still leave one spare point which I think I would put in Drain Strength to give something like this -

http://tinyurl.com/c4vzo9u

I don't imagine that there will be a great diversity of builds amongst DT's, certain abilities are a must for various reasons so we'll only see small deviations from this basic set up. Gear seems to be the decisive factor in how well you fare.

[Sunchaser]

Well, reading this just enlightened me to the fact that I really don't know my dt yet:/

I've been going down the wrong tree by the looks of it, so I'll have to make drastic changes unless this is a stricktly raiding build. Still, I'm not far off from 80, so I guess I'll have to make these changes anyway. So thanks for posting these feat trees and know I'll probably die a lot less now;)

[Tjan]

If you are levelling and are PVE and want more survivability then maybe also consider CoP and more point there - without VoM the need for crit procs is less and the armour miti from the CoP may be of mroe use.

After 80 and with VoM then the CoP becomes less useful than the crit proc chances so move away from the CoP towards the first spec posted.

If u want more dps then Talisman mastery etc are all req'd but then this become less useful for tanking. You should get a spec from Kolasi for High dps and cloth gear - loads of fun for the short period you live.

And as for the dying less, this will be due to lack of aggro swapping more times than failure to hold aggro in my opinion - as evidenced by Tjan. But when the dps-ers are going full out I believe the tanks should be able to fight more for the aggro and higher dps for a DT is a way of gaining the aggro. Finding a balance is key - I hope to someday. The aggro guards are capable of generating can only be matched by high dps on a DT - discuss

[Alb]

you'll have to see so that probably some builds are m ore group / raid orientated. Also now-a-days quite a few builds might take advantage of AAS feats/skills (e.g. the discussion about Stone Skin) which won't be available for a newly 80 DT .

But if you got any questions about DT, builds or specific feats, feel free to ask (not me so as I don't play a DT ).

edit: bah .. Tjan was quicker

[Gert]

Gert's current build : clicky

DPS from this is focussed on BfA and MB combos (with the appropriate AAs).

In terms of "saving DPS" it's always going to be hard esp in TAS where most mobs and bosses take increased magic damage or there are other factors involved (like stuns, aggro swapping etc); outside of TAS there shouldn't be any problem with a well geared DT in keeping or sharing aggro with the other tank.

As Anti said, the issue in TAS is sharing aggro when you have to tank and that's when too much magic dmg on DT becomes a negative (especially with all the procs flying around). I'd probably make 1 or 2 changes that is TAS related - swap the point from Corrupt Weapon to Approach of Death (still does damage but the proc is better to have in TAS) and move the point in Solid Pestilence into Dark Hand or Ether Reap...as you have Drain Strength, Dark Hand can do some nice dmg in conjunction with that (having the unholy debuff and Drain Strength up gives a ~45% boost to damage on Dark Hand - see my tests from when DH first appeared in game: clicky - I've seen hits of 1000-1500 in TAS with it and heals around the same with Blood Pact up).

Your Dark Hand crits The Keeper of Artifacts for 1004 unholy damage.
Your Dark Hand Healing critically heals you for 1085.

from one of the recent Keeper kills; DH is a bit underrated by DTs imo

---

In terms of aggro overall, DTs don't benefit from Taunt on magic damage so we have to rely on DPS atm - hopefully some changes are coming which will help that...this is why BfA (followed by UB) is the best melee combo atm for aggro.

[Sunchaser]

I think the best thing for me at this point is to just play around with the feat tree a bit. I have a better guide now, so at least I know what I'm aiming at, while tweaking it to my playstyle I guess. I want to have fun with it without being useless in raids one day, that's pretty much the only sense of balance I seek

Still, I see endless hours of killing mobs to test different builds in my future.

[Gert]

There is a levelling guide for Tanky DT posted here - I never got round to doing the DPS one but the Tanky one should help still with what to get when as you level: dt-levelling-build-suggestion-tanking-preparation-t3263.html

[Mistery]

My current spec: http://aoc.yg.com/feat-planner?class=31&tpl=700-05,704-03,713-05,729-01,701-01,731-03,732-03,733-01,710-01,724-01,727-01,717-05,747-05,753-01,754-01,718-05,735-01,744-01,715-01,707-15,708-11,748-15,755-15,738-11,4000-25,4001-25,4002-25,4006-21,4015-21

Never really have aggro problems in terms of loosing it (only when Phorks goes full out and I forgot I told him he is allowed to). I do have problems with the lesser tanks who basically never can take aggro eve nwhen I don't use any irritate or seal of chaos.

With this same build in frenzy stance and dps gear I do around 1200-1400 dps single target (depends on group/raid). So the dps even for a complete tank build can be awesome. With poor tank you get aggro easily tho.

When I compare it to Tjan and Anti, not big differences, only minor tweaks due to gear or personal preference. I know Gert always liked and played with dark hand ^^. I put it under personal preference, I never could get used to it.

When I get some BD-gear in the future (you never know ^^), I might put points of iron skin in sustained rage or so. Atm, I like it like this.

[Gert]

DH can be a nice heal esp with BP up - that along with a hard hitting BFA has seen me go from 2-3k health to near full health

But yes, DH is a Marmite skill

[Saerhimnir]

Using more or less the same build as you Mist, find it a very nice allround spec for tanking, but still allows for nice dps.

[Kyynelkeiju]

Uh... I have somekind of history of my DT builds somewhere... found it

Old crap (tank) build
Another old crap (tank) build
Current (tank+dps) build is partly copied from mists build.

Those both older builds had no aggro at all. And if i recall right, since not really dps, not even any survivibility. Superior examples of the builds that just don't work. So basically Pact of Maladocor is a must for DT to make anything useful and Covenant of Arms when not under uber hard hitting mobs (in my parses Maladocor is 14-20% of all DPS). I tried Dark Hand, liked it. But only if all 5 (or 6) points were spent - healing effect felt little bit too weak (might have been gear + general noobiness issue) and that many points I rather use somewhere else. Hence no Dark Hand atm.

I'm rather satisfied with aggro in my current build - can hold aggro without tricks. Although getting aggro from another tank (aggro switching) still is troublesome. Survivibility is still sometimes problematic, but that is more gear issue. I'm not satisfied with ether reap - at least with 2 points it feels almost useless, I get more mana from mana pot or using Seal of Chaos.

[Gert]

Most builds will be the same unless you go for the broken Talisman Mastery route - gear has a big impact on how a build works for a DT nowadays (which is a shame really - as is the use of VoM).

Ether Reap kinda needs the whole 5 points to work - but 1 point helps a bit as well so it's one of those that is either 1 pt or 5 pt usefulness.

Dark Hand does take some getting used to - using it with Drain Strength improves it's damage, with Blood Pact the heal (and SoC will also improve the heal - +5% heal per mob hit with SoC iirc). I do like DH (the extra 6th point to add splash is a waste though) so try to keep that on a build

Did have some plans to go with an oddball build but on TL didn't add much to dps really unless I used the T3 talisman I had once; getting full BD gear might mean I try again but can't see many builds working well at the end game outside of the ones ppl posting here (i.e. PoM, CoA, DS, IS).

[Mistery]

Yep, in the end it's all about the combination of Pact of Malacodor / Covenant of Arms / Void of Madness for aggro and all the other stuff for survival (general, dread shadow etc).

[Theofric]

Recently changed to this:
http://aoc.yg.com/feat-planner?class=31 ... 25,4015-21

I go with Devourer's Might when sadism counter is up my life tap is about 33% this build focuses taps, imba damage as frenzy. I went with 5/5 ether reap because with no mana, stamina tap this build suffers from lack of mana especially with PoM and soul barrier up all the time but by timing and using 3-4 ranks of Mystical bane i can keep mana up. Stamin I get through the AA upgraded... ability (forgot name) that sacrifices a bit of health for stamina, and mana+stamina pots are needed.

WIth LL epic protection gear and chromatic warding for the fights i have enough protection to MT all HMs (no problem with adds in Pagoda HM) for Yag Spawn I might have to resort to dread, blood pact but it's still doable, with epic Wolves + LL gear I can MT most physical HMs, there's also dread.

Once I get epic SC tali (have the rares) and you lovely people help craft an Ibis ill go for this:
http://aoc.yg.com/feat-planner?class=31 ... 25,4015-21

Full Protection and Physical epic Khitai sets are probably a must, with SC and Tigers stuff mixed in for max crit rating depending on encounter...

As I see the DT is a class that starts slow with turtle builds needed for tanking early then as you get better gear and AA you can keep speccing deeper into desecration and still be a very good tank with imba damage on the side.

DT = Fun Fun VOM VOM.

P.S. Gert if you still doubt VoM go with some high crit rating gear + some SC stuff and pull the whole library in Apostate and burn them in a orgy of crits... got to love that.

[Gert]

P.S. Gert if you still doubt VoM go with some high crit rating gear + some SC stuff and pull the whole library in Apostate and burn them in a orgy of crits... got to love that.

It's not that I doubt VoM - it's that I dislike the way that it's the only viable option for DTs nowadays...I've done Apostate with 6-8 mobs (any more and the Overwhelming buffed hits are too much) with Death Lord and Sanguine Infusion but that setup isn't viable for raids nowadays. (DL + SfaF up = 31% Life Tap for me without any Sadism)

[Tjan]

Taken onboard some of the feedback from above and trying this now:

http://aoc.yg.com/feat-planner?class=31 ... 21,4015-21

With my Chromatic warding, AA prots and improved prot gear I thing that 1 point in CoI will suffice and still give me a 6% prot buff if I need. Similarly 1 point in CoP gives me a 5% miti buff. 3 points in Ether Reap gives me a always on mana recovery chance. It may be that 3 points is not enough and I will check and see if it is worth moving the last CoI and CoP points to Ether reap?

I have taken onboard Antig's feedback about Approaching death so have specced that. I tend to use martyrdom quite a lot so I like the idea of Sacrificial fury. Will see how this performs. It may be that I am better served using that point to give myself 5 points in PoM instead of this 4. I understand that POM is one of the major sources of DT dps so the difference between 4 points (30%) and 5 points (50%) may be significant.

There was some mention of Soul barrier above - It is worth reminding people that they can toggle soul barrier off when their mana is/or is about to be depleted - then with a mana pot to help, you will still be able to use your DT feats and if you get in trouble you will have a mana pool that you can use to take extra damage by toggling on SB again.
Also, Antig has reminded me before that Curse of Gwahlur and Pact of Malacador can be toggled off to even out aggro if you are in a mismatched tanking aggro partnership.

[Gert]

Not sure that build will do much dps (it's not a build link, just the DT planner link )

[Tjan]

had some problems submmitting and I lost most of the first post and had to re-type - the link changed also

[Mistery]

I doubt the usefullness of soul infusion.

[Gert]

SI is handy in T3 - quite a few fights have magic dmg flying about and 1 point to get 10% mana back every 10 seconds is worth it imo esp at Brothers, Louhi, Toth...

[Mistery]

Good point, seems usefull there. I don't use DT in T3 so no use for me atm.

[Tjan]

Sorry if I am being dense but why is it important that it is magic damage flying around rather than normal physical damage etc? Doesn't it all have the same effect on Soul Barrier etc?

[Kyynelkeiju]

I think i'll try Soul Infusion.

Sometimes I have forgotten CoI (Covenant of Invulnerability) on and fought mobs that I thought were pure melee mobs and still CoI is procing seals. If all those hits are considered magical hits they might cause SI to proc too. It looks like many mobs have some abilities that are considered magical even that their main damage is physical. Gonna test this.

[Saerhimnir]

Sorry if I am being dense but why is it important that it is magic damage flying around rather than normal physical damage etc? Doesn't it all have the same effect on Soul Barrier etc?

If your question is regarding the soul infusion, as I interpret it, it's due to the fact that soul infusion only proc on magic damage/spells.
SI will give back some of that damage as mana to the DT while soul barrier is up.

@Kyy
Ive done the same observation as you have Kyy regarding CoI. I believe that many of the mobs named attacks are considered as spells even though they are melee (or ranger) type mobs.

I guess it's similar to the guardian Cry of Havoc which is classed as a spell and often proc the fire damage debuff from the demo keeper.