Brothers of Arms

[Atkara]

I've grown tired of the mindless dpsers racing against the soldiers (and the rest of the dpsers also) only to blame the tanks/healers for the demise they brought upon themselves, by their own hand.

So, I decided it's time to seek out the way to completely strip them off their right to die.

This, might as well be the answer. A similar approach seems to be working extremely well on my Guardian so, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work on a Conqueror too.

Obviously the reason behind Stone Skin, is the immediate need for protection in T3 runs. Also, I'll be stripped from my beloved Overcome the Odds ability, which basically enables the Conqueror to hold against a melee boss, long enough for the healers to finally arrive at the scene. But, if we are to keep those reckless dpsers from killing themselves, we can't have them all... can we...?

Suddenly, letting them die anyways seems like a valid alternative to me

[Balcifer]

Suddenly, letting them die anyways seems like a valid alternative to me

Oh yes. The best way a DPSer will learn not to pull aggro is by lying on the ground a lot of times. If he still can't get the point ... well... something is wrong with him

[Kendar]

Not sure if i can ever let go off Overcome the Odds. It's just too much of a lifesaver when everything goes south.

Been thinking of going in this direction.

Not feating substained rage, but hopefully hateful strikes and improved dancing steel will be that ekstra +hate needed for some extra aggro. Never feated hateful strikes before, so quite interested in seeing the effect.

Suddenly, letting them die anyways seems like a valid alternative to me

LOOL

[Atkara]

Kend, the build you posted is almost identical to the build I'm currently using, with one exception: I left Heroic Call out.

I don't like the idea to abandon Overcome the Odds, either, believe me... but if this is the only way... it might be worth the try...

Oh, with the build you're heading to, it'd be best to use Hateful Strikes & Burst of Aggression upon first contact, to gain overhead against... you know... "them"...

Just don't do it on Daimone, or the rest of us will have lots of trouble getting him off you

[Alb]

... well... something is wrong with him

SW demos or necros ... masochists ... all of them ... ... j/k

[Kendar]

It's very close to my current build as well, i just dropped 3 points from At death's door, and moved them to Hateful Strikes.

At this point i guess all of us brute conqs have nearly identical builds, so it's just a matter of tuning for perfection

Just not sure if Substained rage will build more aggro than the more frequent and increased retaliatory damage you get from Improved dancing steel. Certainly can't be a lot more, so that's why i'm hesitating to feat it at the expense of OtO

[Atkara]

We took extra protection for T3 raids, at the expense of other feats. Suddenly, 1/4 of the dpsers, started bragging about their "accomplishments" in the aggro monkey business, without realizing what has really happened.

Yes, this build is mostly to prove a point, then rub the results to their faces. Maybe they'll start working as a team afterwards, instead of dpsing like maniacs.

Or maybe we do need Sustained Rage to cope with aggro, generated from dps & stop trying to tank the universe.

Or maybe both...

[Atkara]

Now, let's be a bit more constructive:

Improved Retribution, Improved Dancing Steel and Overcome the Odds, are there to sustain aggro and keep you up in long term tanking.

Mocking Sneer, Colossus of War & Blessed Conquest, are definitely aimed towards quick aggro generation. After all, Blessed Conquest seems like a vastly improved form of Cunning Deflection. With 6 seconds of 200% damage deflection coming from BC, the mob isn't going to switch aggro anytime soon.

So, the trick with a build similar to what Kendar and I currently utilize, might be:

First Contact:

• Slam Irritate & Retaliation altogether -commonly used by all conquerors.
• Initiate Hail of Furious strikes, hit Burst of Aggression & Hateful Strikes in the middle, then finish the combo.
• Hit Blessed Conquest & possibly Cunning Deflection too.
• While Blessed Conquest is active, hit Guard of Dancing Steel.

Secondary Contact, a.k.a. having to build aggro first, before getting a boss off another soldier's back:

• Allow Colossus of War to build up to 20x, easily obtained when Lumbering Hulk is on.
• Initiate Hail of Furious Strikes, hit Burst of Aggression & Hateful Strikes in the middle, then finish the combo.
• Keep dpsing with 2 ranks of Hail of Furious Strikes till you feel you've built enough aggro to grab the mob.
• Slam Irritate & Retaliation altogether -mob should've turned against you by now
• Hit Blessed Conquest & possibly Cunning Deflection too.
• While Blessed Conquest is active, hit Guard of Dancing Steel.

hmm... this might actually work...

[Gert]

Do remember things will change from next week Improved Irritate, Forced Engage (shorter cooldown version of Goad) and class specific AAS will shift the playfield...as will some of the goodies Casters get...

But an interesting discussion

[Bear]

Hey.. A good caster always dies a few times

[Atkara]

Yes Gert, I do remember about forced enrage. But we do have another week till the expansion goes live so, we must still think what happens in the meantime. Also, the reverse-thinking I just did, gives me the impression that maybe we're still able to keep Sustained Rage out...

I've been doing some math during our last TAS run, and brute tree can give 18% dps increase from Lumbering Hulk, 18% from Colossus of War, 15% from Mocking Sneer & another 15% from Furious Inspiration. IIRC, Defensive Stance cuts 10% so, we roughly got a final 56% dps increase (unless def stance penalty is -15%, which gives a final +51%). On Frenzy, figures go way higher.

Thing is that, we're talking about a gradual dps buildup. Burst of Aggression & Hateful Strikes should be able to fill the aggro gap though. Maybe it all comes down to what you're doing & when (like the procedure I proposed in the previous post).

Also, it's not all about making a mob angry, it's also about keeping it angry, while being still in position to let go, when time is up. This also needs attention.

[Kendar]

Yeah, we are planning on downing the brothers this sunday, so we better be prepared

After all, Blessed Conquest seems like a vastly improved form of Cunning Deflection. With 6 seconds of 200% damage deflection coming from BC, the mob isn't going to switch aggro anytime soon.

Unless i am mistaken Blessed Conquest has no retaliatory damage like Cunning Deflection, just the shield, so that won't do you much good in terms of maintaining aggro. I might be wrong, but i believe it''s main purpose is "just" to give you a 6 second window of invulnerability. Which ofc is nice, especially with an incoming big heal while it's running

[Atkara]

Will crosscheck the Blessed Conquest function ASAP

[Urumaru]

Right Kend, blessed conquest is damages deflexion, not retribution, so the effect on the aggro is 0, when cunning deflection does actually retributes 100% of the damages taken, which is the best aggro ability i know.

honestly, it's been a long time i stopped trying to save the aggro monkeys. The only player i try to help by taking aggro from him is a tank, i'll never use even my weakest aggro ability for a dps.

And you're totally right, with T3, all the tank builds got lower aggro, higher survivability, so if the dps don't get that, just let them die so they won't bother you during the fights.

That's also why i'll never sacrifice OTO just to burst some aggro, as the conq anyway is not a soldier designed to tank a single mob/boss.
The conq is made for tanking 2+ mobs at a time.

I mean look at AF, the conq is never happier than when he got 3/4 mobs + 5 minions pulled, then his aggro/CC/survivability are unlimited.

And for tempest guard, to build your first piece of aggro, you need 5 seconds, and just to put your first combo, so dps starting dealing their short and heavy combos during this time will take aggro for sure. Their problem, + they see that when they already dealt their first dps combo, you are still working on dealing white hits to actually trigger yours, so it's really their fault and i don't think a tank has to feel guilty or weak if he can't take aggro in these conditions.

Honestly, i'm sick of this aggro competition, so now, on all my tanks, i go for survivability, i use rings/necklace for this and don't even bother trying to put dps rings/necklace to boost my dps.
And for dps classes unable to master their damages, well, too bad for them, i won't shed a tear.

[Atkara]

Indeed, kend's right. Scratch Blessed Conquest usage as Cunning Deflection's "improved alternative".

[Kendar]

The spesific task at hand for conqs to figure out now is the tanking of Ixion. That's why i find this discussion a bit more interesting than the usual build discussion..

And you're totally right, with T3, all the tank builds got lower aggro, higher survivability, so if the dps don't get that, just let them die so they won't bother you during the fights.

I do agree that dps'ers need to control themselves, and be more moderate when needed. But still.. unless we all try do to our best, we will not succeed in T3. So far the conqs most difficult task at hand is to tank Ixion. That means grabbing aggro, and keeping it when dps is pooring down on him. That's why we need plenty of abilities for aggro management, and why i find this thread useful. Ixion will bounce from dps'er to dps'er unless we as conqs generate a lot of hate. He seems to be switching his aggro very easy, and we do need to keep a sufficient level of dps on him to excel the healing he is doing on himself. So we can't just sit back and laugh at the aggro monkeys. In this spesific fight our job is to allow the dps'ers do the needed amount of dps without them being killed. But there is ofc a limit, and that's what we need to figure out.

[Urumaru]

brute conq on ixion with full protection gear, using DW with 2 flawless edges with white gems in it and using the carnage combos + brute aggro abilities =
Unbeatable aggro + max protection.

[Kendar]

Nice tip Mell Will most def look more closeøy into it. Gonna have Phorks make me a couple of those swords.

[Kendar]

brute conq on ixion with full protection gear, using DW with 2 flawless edges with white gems in it and using the carnage combos + brute aggro abilities =
Unbeatable aggro + max protection.

I tried this last night and i have to agree Mell. As soon as i got some aggro built up, it was really easy to rotate aggro with Lyk. Most of the time i didn't even use any aggro abilities to grab it. Which is good, as i then could save both irritate and retaliation until after Ixion did his healing. After he does his heals he always attacks one of the dps around him, and with aggro abilities ready, aggro could be grabbed quickly.

With the protection gear i got so far i'm reaching 42% magic mitigation. Ixion's holy dmg was redused from about 2,5k to about 1,8 - 1,9k. That helped a lot. With less armor his crushing damage was a bit worse, but not nearly enough to compensate for the redused holy damage.

Was taking heavy hits ofc, so a setup with guard and conq was just perfect. Lyk was main tank, and i waited until he was at 30-40% health, before grabbing aggro with a series of combos and crushing onslaught.

[Atkara]

This whole protection goose chase, actually messed up my conq and my mind...

Tried another build also, which seems to have brought solid aggro control back. But, as you see, I lost Blessed Conquest. And last night, I've had at least two occasions, where I actually needed that particular ability...

I've had enough of this... I need a full Brute tree, along with an equally full Sustained Rage. This, even if I have to resort into something like this build. I know, it's considered a sacrilege, but my options are really limited. Because I want to have Daimone or Ixion on me with a simple Irritate, then using Cunning Deflection and Guard of Dancing Steel. This, without having resort to Retaliation at all!

I'll check this build out tonight on TL, and I'll try to strip down Iron Skin, Stone Skin, or Improved Defensive stance, for the sake of either of those three I just mentioned, to crosscheck results. But I won't take out even 1 point off Sustained Rage down, ever again.

[Urumaru]

Just posting here something obvious, just in case.

I got 3 full sets of rings/necklace, which i switch depending of the situation.
Protection, armor/HP, dps.

Sometimes, just putting 1 dps ring instead of a survivability one gives you the little pinch you needed to get and keep aggro, and you don't need to refeat the whole character for that.

About t3 tanking. A conq is not a dt, that's it, so a conq will never be comfortable in t3 anyway, so just use your usual build and change your gear when needed. refeating all the time is not good, it can make your own character unfamiliar.

And yes, T3 is the DT kingdom, without any doubt, guards and conqs can only help but they will never be as efficient as a DT.
In t1/2, guards were the stars, in t3, it's the turn of the DTs.

And for conqs, well, we own the usual instances.

[Atkara]

Did some tests over Testlive. I want to forget I ever tried to max out protection through feats. I'm settling down to this build and this is it. End of story. In other words, "Finito la musica, il passato la fiesta"

Mel, I do have dps and protection jewelry sets. But I want to be absolutely able to handle Daimone's knockback times just with Irritate usage, saving Retaliation for the occasional emergency aggro swap.

I'll go for Chromatic Warding from AA and when the time comes, I'll go for Rout. This gives another rank of Guard of Dancing Steel, which offers evasion -along with immunity if i'm not mistaken.

Also, I don't like the idea of using Forced Enrage on Ixion, Kharon or Daimone... Gert, please correct me if I'm wrong about this but, while it's stronger than Goad, it works just like it. You can't use Force Enrage if it's already been used on a given mob and even worse, you might not be able to pull it back...

[Gert]

Also remember the "Wards" in AAS are passive so you can go with one or all that fit specific magic dmg - quite quick to train as well using the time based setup...

[Atkara]

Yes m8, I do remember that part about the rest of wards. Let the expansion hit live tonight, and I'll prioritize the conq above any other char.

May I please level up my DT too...? Please...?

[Gert]

No